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Mostar in Bosnia-Herzegovina

Mostar in Bosnia-Herzegovina

The comments on this page make it clear that confusion reigns when it comes to taking a rental car to or through Bosnia-Hercegovina and Montenegro. There are all kinds of convoluted proposed solutions to the “problem” of driving from Split to Dubrovnik which takes you through a sliver of Bosnian territory. Neum is Bosnia’s only outlet to the sea and was left there for political reasons. Believe me,  Croatians don’t like it either!

But I digress. The question is: do you need to pay for a special cross-border card in order to enter Bosnia ? The issue is important not only for driving down the coast but for taking one of the hugely popular day trips to Mostar in Bosnia or Kotor in Montenegro.

No, you do not need a cross-border card. Let me back up a little. On my trip to Croatia in 2009, I too assumed that a cross-border card was necessary and that some car rental companies included it and some didn’t.

I was completely wrong. I rented through AutoEurope on the assumption that the cross-border card was included. At the rental desk, the agent informed me that no cross-border card was ever necessary to travel to Bosnia and Montenegro because those countries were already covered on the green insurance card. Indeed, she showed me the list of included countries on the green card and–what do you know?–there were Bosnia and Montenegro. I drove to both countries and no one ever checked anything, presumably because they saw the Croatian rental plates and knew I was covered.

Because of the numerous comments on my car rental page indicating that insurance companies were still insisting that a special cross-border card was necessary, I decided to call the Croatian Insurance Bureau yesterday.  A spokeswoman confirmed that Bosnia and Montenegro were part of the “green card system” and that insurance issued as part of a Croatian car rental would necessarily cover those countries “unless it was crossed out”. “Why would it be crossed out?” I asked. “Well, sometimes they do that but no they are not supposed to”, she replied.

It sounds like a scam. Based on my experience and information from the Croatian Insurance Bureau, I recommend that you:

  • do not buy any “cross-border card” when you rent a car in Croatia
  • check your insurance papers to make sure no countries are crossed out
  • cross the border at Neum in peace and consider taking a fabulous day trip to Mostar or Montenegro!

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  • CroatiaJeanne

    In other words, insurance is not included with the rental? I never heard of that one. Insurance comes with a green card. I would not trust an agency playing this kind of game or crossing out countries or any of the rest of it. The next thing they’ll be billing your for someone else’s damage which is another favorite car rental scam and not just in Croatia. Bear in mind that when you cross the border, no one asks to see papers once they see a Croatia rental plate.

  • Greg

    Hi Jeanne, I have been researching a trip we are taking to Croatia in May June and your advice here has been very helpful. But after reading your notes above about not requiring a cross border card, the following excerpt is a copy & paste from the terms & conditions for a car (from Avantcar) searched through your partner AutoEurope;

    Travel is permitted into all Western European countries in addition to Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovania, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria and Greece free of charge. Travel is permitted intoRussia, Belarus, Ukraine, Montenegro, Moldova, Turkey, Albania, Macedonia, Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina for a Cross Border Fee of approx. EUR 50, paid locally. Travel is permitted into Kosovo for an additional fee of approx. EUR 6.25per day, paid locally.For rentals that must travel through Bosnia to go from Croatia to South Croatia or vice versa, a fee will incur of approximately EUR 25, paid locally.Countries of travel must be noted on the voucher at time of booking.

    I’m a little confused, but it seems like these companies are clearly charging a fee for these.

    Kind Regards,


  • CroatiaJeanne

    Hi Greg, Thanks for sharing. The companies are certainly trying to tack on the charge but the wording here is interesting: “Travel is permitted into . . .Bosnia. . . for a cross-border fee. . .”. A fee will “incur” for travel through Bosnia. In other words, these countries are not specifically excluded, it’s only to say that travel is “permitted” with payment of a fee. Cute. It’s also permitted without payment of a fee or a cross-border card. By law, the insurance is valid for travel through Bosnia and Montenegro as confirmed by the authorities I cited in the article. I’ve heard many, many reports of visitors being pressed into paying these fees but none whatsoever–anywhere!–complaining that a claim was denied for failing to purchase this “extra coverage”.

  • Nobody

    Dear all……

    If you want to travel in the NON EU countries, you can do that with buying a green card with your car rental provider.
    Car rental provider is taking all the risk if anything happens during your stay in NON EU country.
    If you have an accident or somebody steals car you rented in NON EU country, and you haven`t bought a green card, your car rental agent will charge you for damage on the car and give you a penalty (300+€) because you went in NON EU countries without theirs approval.
    If something happens in -NEUM , part where you are crossing if you are traveling from DUBROVNIK to SPLIT for example, non car rental provider will be so mean and charge you for anything above mentioned.

    Best regards,

  • Mike Thaler

    Just discovered this thread. Want to rent/return rental car in Milan, Italy. (Am U.S. citizen) Want to travel to Vienna, Trieste -then down coast to Dubrovnik. Then thru Bosnia, Slovenia and back to Milan. Both Sixt and Europacar said couldn’t take car to Bosnia. Guess we could give up main part of Bosnia – but would need to travel thru that 15-20Km stretch of road that goes thru Bosnia on the coast. Do border people really check for proper papers on car? Is there any company that allows rental cars to really enter Bosnia?

  • CroatiaJeanne

    Normally if you rent the car in Croatia, you can take it to Bosnia. I’ve done it! No, there is not a check for papers at the Neum border crossing.

  • Ladan

    This is very helpful, thanks. We’re planning a trip in Croatia and Montenegro, actually, but it’s easier for us to start in Croatia, get the rental car from the Dubrovnik airport, spend some days in Dubrovnik, and then drive into Montenegro with the same car for some days there before we return the car to Croatia and travel back to the UK. I have been trying to figure out which rental company is the most honest and up front about these so-called extra fees as I’m concerned that we’ll land and go to get the car and when we say we’ll be in Montenegro for a few days they’ll demand we pay these ‘local’ fees before they give us our car. Have you (or any other readers) had a good experience with all of this? The prices to hire a car seem about the same (within 20-30 Euros) so I’m less bothered about that but would prefer to choose a company that doesn’t tack on unreasonable and even illegal fees! That would sour the start of our holiday, for sure. :)

  • CroatiaJeanne

    The green card is basically your insurance card and is included automatically with every car rental because some insurance is obligatory. (More here: //www.croatiatraveller.com/AutoInsurance.htm) By law, Montenegro is included as a covered country so it doesn’t matter what you tell them.

  • CroatiaJeanne

    It’s none of their business where you’re going (unless, possibly, Kosovo–not sure there). To avoid a sales pitch and an unpleasant interchange, I would just keep mum if your plans include Montenegro or Bosnia.

  • Mayank

    Hi Jeanne,

    I will be travelling from Split to Dubrovnik in June, and have thought of booking a car for this extremely beautiful drive.

    The following is what was mentioned in the terms and conditions on the Enterprise site.


    I know you’ve said it time and again in the comments that a cross border pass isn’t required. But I couldn’t help but ask this to you myself after reading what I just did.

  • CroatiaJeanne

    Thank you for sharing Mayank. Bear in mind that the T & C on the website are not legally binding but the actual rental papers are (except for illegal clauses). Always check the papers. For more information about the “green card” and cross-border insurance in Europe see here: //www.cobx.org/content/default.asp?PageID=1

  • Teoni

    Hi there! Hope you can assist me. We are planing a drive around the Balkans but we will be starting and renting a car from Montenegro. I was hoping you might know if the green card system and its rules are the same as Croatia and if driving through BiH or EU countries like Slovenia or Italy would be a problem with Montenegrin plates?

  • CroatiaJeanne

    My guess would be yes but I can’t guarantee it.

  • Ingrid Ramirez

    Hi-I just crossed over from Croatia into Bosnia yesterday so we could visit Mostar. I did reluctantly buy the green pass from Enterprise because of the language on the contract-I think it was 50 euro extra. We were literally the only car passing through the border at the time and nobody asked for the green pass. I’m sorry I didn’t heed the advice of this page! At any rate-the roads in Croatia are fantastic!

  • Ingrid Ramirez

    Hi-I commented above also but want to say that I also rented from Enterprise at Zagreb airport. I told them when I picked up the car that I might go to Mostar and they said I had to pay the 50 euro (this was when I was picking up the car so there was no 7 day waiting period). I crossed into Mostar yesterday and the only thing they asked for was out passports-no green card. Complete waste of 50 euro! We were the only ones passing through the border at the time so it’s not like they were rushed-in fact, they all seemed super bored and actually made some small talk with me.

  • CroatiaJeanne

    Thanks for sharing, Ingrid!

  • CroatiaJeanne

    Thanks! That was pretty much my experience as well in crossing into Mostar and Montenegro.

  • AG

    I am renting a car in italy and planning to drive thru Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, then taking the ferry to Italy. The car company is telling me I could go as far as croatia otherwise my insurance does not cover montenegro and bosnia. Could I possibly by the green pass for Montenegro and Bosnia?

  • CroatiaJeanne

    You should be able to but I’m afraid you’ll need to take that up with the car rental company.

  • Ryan Curtis

    I need to drive from split to dubrovnik and on to Podgorica (Montenegro) and then back again about 2 weeks later. my UK insurer (Directline) won’t cover Bosnia or Montenegro (OR serbia) for insurances purposes despite them all being in the Green Card scheme..

  • CroatiaJeanne

    I wish I could help but the article above really only deals with cars that are rented in Croatia. It sounds like you need to take it up with the regulatory body that deals with UK car insurance.

  • James

    I rented a car from Split Airport with super cheap rental company “Car Hire Rent” (sounds promising), and I’m not sure I’ve been provided with a Green Card. The documents I’ve got have a tick in the No box next to Green Card. Is this legal? All the comments I’m seeing say that the border crossing is covered by the Green Card, but what if you don’t have one?

  • CroatiaJeanne

    As long as you are insured, it is not necessary that a formal green card be issued. I was using “green card” as a short cut for insurance papers. Check your paperwork!

  • Arkansas Traveler

    I rented from Europcar in Italy and they explicitly don’t allow their vehicles in Bosnia. Fortunately, there is a ferry from Ploce to Trpanj that runs several times a day in the high season and costs about 40 euro for a family of 4 and a car. You never leave Croatian territory and therefore avoid Neum.

    Granted, I am a pedantic stickler for the rules so this solution might not appeal to everyone. However, I really wanted to take an overnight trip to Mostar so having solved the Split to Dubrovnik driving problem without breaking my contract, I contacted Europcar again and just asked to purchase additional insurance to make this possible. Not Happening! No Dice, no green card, no 50 euro. If you rent from this company in a country other than Croatia or Bosnia itself, you’re on your own if you break the rules, even for the short drive through Neum.

  • CroatiaJeanne

    Thanks for sharing that. Yes, the ferry from Ploce to Trpanj does resolve that problem but it highlights a serious issue for Croatia, namely that mainland Croatia is cut off from its southernmost region. Fortunately it won’t be for much longer as the country has obtained financing for the construction of the Peljesac bridge which will connect the mainland north of Neum with the Peljesac peninsula. It will be a tremendous relief to car-renting visitors!

  • Denis

    hi Jeanne
    A great blog with very helpful information, thanks.

    I’m travelling from Croatia to Montenegro in September and am collecting a car at Dubrovnik Airport (booked through Auto Europe) . I’m not sure at this point how long I will stay in Montenegro .. a least a day, but maybe a few weeks !

    I note that my voucher says:
    ” * Travel is permitted into Western Europe as well as Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Romania, Bulgaria,Greece, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. All countries of travel must be noted at time of booking.A Cross Border fee applies of approximatley EUR 62.60″

    Now, this fee seems very high to me. In other years, there was no fee. I’ve been trying to find out from Auto Europe if my insurance is void if I pay the cross border fee at the border and not to the car rental company at the airport. Despite many e-mails to them (8 at the last count ! ), they have evaded the question and have just stated that the fee needs to be paid to the car hire company.

    What exactly is the cross border fee ? Is it a type of insurance or just a tax on entering another country ? Is the cross border fee separate to the ‘Green Card’ ? Am I correct in thinking that I can pay this fee at the border ? Auto Europe have said that whether I stay in Montenegro for 12 days or 12 minutes .. the fee of EUR62.60 still applies !

    Any advice you can provide would be greatly appreciated


  • CroatiaJeanne

    Hi Denis, I would describe the cross border fee as a tourist ripoff. As I indicated in this post, your insurance on a rental car picked up in Croatia is valid as a matter of law in Montenegro. When you pick up your car, look at the terms of the rental contract because, legally, that is what governs. The voucher contains three ambiguous statements, not a specific exclusion. I’ve been point this out for some time now and no one has returned to the community complaining that I led them astray!

  • Denis

    thank you so much for that Jeanne
    I certainly plan to check out the terms of the rental contract .. I’m just hoping they’re in English !

    thanks again

  • CANtraveler

    Hi There, i need some help here, I am planning to drive from Split to Medugorje in October and I do not know where to go for boarder crossing. A1 seems to extended into Bosina near Medugorje, but don’t know if the road is complete yet or not. Thanks in advance!

  • Nalita Sanderson

    Hello, we are planning on hiring a car & driving from Dubrovnik to Split which as we know goes through Bosnia-Hercegovina via the Newm corridor – had anything changed since this original post started please? We don’t want to pay the cross border EUR50 if we don’t need to. Thanks

  • CroatiaJeanne

    Nothing has changed. You don’t need to pay the fee.

  • Nalita Sanderson


  • abi

    Hi this june we are renting a car in belgrade and visiting parts of bosnia and croatia, what do we need in the way of green card/cross border card etc?

  • Alan S

    Hi, I am planning on hiring a car in Zadar in June and I am still confused about the requirement for cross border charges to drive to Dubrovnik via Neum. Hertz are saying I need to pay a cross border fee. Is this the cross border CARD fee you are referring to, or is the CARD fee another fee in addition? Also, surely, even if it is a scam, it is wiser just to pay up and regard it as part of the cost of the car, rather than risk a large bill at the end of the rental. IMO all insurance is a scam/gamble. If you claim, they may, or may not, pay up. If I pay Hertz the cross border fee, will that be the end of it? Thanks.

  • CroatiaJeanne

    In principle, you do not need a cross border card for a rental in Serbia just as you do not need it in Croatia.

  • CroatiaJeanne

    There is no cross-border fee, charge or extra paperwork necessary to cross the border at Neum. I don’t see how a large bill at the end of the rental could happen unless the contract says that Hertz will not pay on any claim incurred south of Neum. i agree with you about all insurance!

  • xurxsper


    Is there a similar border-crossing requirement needed from a car rented in Croatia to get into Italy?

    We are currently in Pula and thinking about visiting neighboring Venice.

  • Alan S

    Thanks very much for your advice.its much appreciated.

  • CroatiaJeanne

    No, there’s no problem renting a car in Croatia and taking a day trip to Venice.

  • Stuart

    Hi Jeanne. Love the website. Very helpful. But I’m still confused about car hire and crossing borders.

    I’m traveling to Dubrovnik tomorrow, and have my car hire booked with Alamo/Enterprise. Hoping to include a day trip to Kotor Bay. But I’ve just stumbled across this on the Enterprise website:

    “Cross Border Policy – Cross border rentals are allowed within the European Countries. For Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Albania, Serbia, Macedonia and Kosovo a cross border fee of 50 EUR inclusive of VAT applies. A prior written authorization in required. There is also an insurance fee that applies. The guarantee is equal with the buying value of the rented car. These kind of rentals should b e rquested from rental location at least 7 working days prior to the pick up date. Please contact the reservations department at 385 20437575 for further information. Process and publication of green card – minimum time of publication of a green card is 7 working days. Charge is 50 EUR per rental. The green card covers the rented vehicle with basic insurance – T.P.I – as long as it remains in the borders of the country for which it is issued. Road Assistance or car replacement while driving abroad is available.”

    Surely I can’t just ignore this and cross the border anyway?


  • CroatiaJeanne

    Hi Stuart,
    The signed papers that make up the rental agreement are legally binding, not what’s written on the website. When you pick up the rental car, look at the papers and question the rental agent, perhaps specifically pointing out the article above.

  • stesand

    Hi Jeanne, great article which I’m sure has saved many of us €€€! Without wanting to repeat previous questions, should we decline the green card offer in Dubrovnik and head to the Montenegrin border as planned? And if needed, can we buy an insurance at the border should the guards insist? Fleet want 87€ plus tax! There’s no way I’m paying that when it’s not necessary and I’m already looking at alternatives as we have free cancelation. I called Autoeurope but the guy wasn’t very friendly and said he doesn’t have an answer if I would be charged or not

  • CroatiaJeanne

    The guards at the Montenegrin border are there for customs and immigration. They are not there to enforce insurance regulations. Thus, they do not sell insurance. So yes, you do not need to pay an extra fee to cross the border.

  • stesand

    Thank you!!

  • Gabriela Casadei da Cruz

    Hello, I am also going to Croatia next week and I’ve booked a car with FLEET by Autoeurope. What did you decide? Have you tried to go to Bosnia and Montenegro without paying the 87 euros tax?

  • stesand

    My trip is next week so we’ll see what happens. My feeling is that if I say I’m not going to Montenegro + BiH, they simply won’t give me the insurance document. Not sure on the law with regards to this though…

  • Dzej Pi

    Hi there, I just want to make sure I get it. When I rent a car in Croatia and want to drive it to Montenegro I DON’T need a cross border card on top, correct? The rental company should already have it included in their insurance papers? So basically if they ask for an additional EUR 80 it’s stealing, to put it simply? Thanks!!!

  • CroatiaJeanne

    Hi Dzej, That’s about the size of it.

  • Dzej Pi

    I just got in touch with Oryx and they asked for HRK 385 (EUR 50) so I told them that Montenegro should be included (i even said i called the Croatian Insurance Board like you did, LOL) and they replied saying that it was still HRK 385 (these are their T&C) so declined their offer saying it was not in accordance with the what the Insurance Bureau says :))

  • Fırat Tekil


    We travelled through Bosnia in order to reach Dubrovnik from Split. The border responsible said we don’t need to pay for insurance when we are using the way back to Split from Dubrovnik. But we wanted to be sure.

    Did anybody asked “the Green Card” when you were coming back in direction of Dubrovnik to Split?

    Thank you!

  • Natasha Cassir

    I am also going renting a car in Croatia and going to Montenegro! Were you able to cross the boarder without the cross border fee? Thanks for the heads up!

  • Randy Do

    Hello I am planning to travel from Split to Bosnia does. Can you drive a rental car from Split to Bosnia without any problems and do you need Cross border card to cross into Bosnia??? Also, do you get a chance to know how to rent a cheap rental car from Split??? Thanks for your help

  • Bastien Jcqt-Jllt

    Hello, we rented a car today in Dubrovnik through Avantcar. They wanted us to pay for a ” cross border fee”. We felt it was some kind of scam, so we refused. The guy put a huge red stamp on the rental agreement “Exit out of Croatia Not Allowed, insurance is not valid outside of Croatia”.
    Looking at the details of the contract, it states that “cross-border fee is mandatory for driving outside of Croatia and outside of the EU” followed by a small sentence “without cross-border fee the customer has 100% responsibility for damage that occurs when driving outside of Croatia and outside of the EU”

    We are still heading to Split by the highway, and plan to have a day trip to Kotor. If you don’t hear back from me, it means that there was no issue…

  • CroatiaJeanne

    Thanks for sharing that, Bastien. As I’ve said, it’s important to read the contract. This car rental company has specifically excluded neighboring countries from their coverage.

  • CroatiaJeanne

    I would take the extra insurance in that case as the implication is that your insurance coverage would stop at the border.

  • Cazza

    Hello there, I am planning to rent a car at Dubrovnik airport and drive the car into Montengro for a few days then back to Dubrovnik. The Europcar website gives no information about whether a cross border fee is applicable, you just have to decide whether to tick the box when you hire the car as to whether to add this fee – a whopping $71 AUD for 5 days. Has anything changed since recent posts – ie I think I should not need to pay this fee to drive to Montenegro from Croatia – is this still true?

  • CroatiaJeanne

    Hi Cazza, Yes it’s still true. When you pick up the car, make sure that you are still insured while in Montenegro. You should be.

  • CroatiaJeanne

    Hi Maria,
    It is expensive! The situation has not really changed except that some countries are specifically excluding coverage of Montenegro and Bosnia in the rental contracts, presumably because it’s an additional expense for the agencies in case of a breakdown. To cross the narrow sliver of land at Neum on your way to Dubrovnik poses no problem whatsoever.

  • Lorrie Wood

    I have a question for the people who manage this page. You are very clear that any company charging for this green card is ripping you off however. each and every car company which you recommend or turns up on this page’s car rental search engine charges for this, I looked at all of them. It seems that although you say it isn’t needed to take the car across the boarder you would be doing so without informing the company and then dealing with whatever the consequences may come from an accident or theft out of Croatia is this the jist of it? If it is indeed an unnecessary expense can you please give us links to honest non rip off car rental companies?

    What is your advice on the charge for the ferries do you also recommend not informing the rental company or is that a charge you should pay?

    Has anyone found any car rental company that does not require this “rip off” or do you just gamble that you won’t run into a problem out of Croatia?

  • Lorrie Wood

    Following up – I wrote to the “Biro zelene karte BiH” must say I am impressed by the quick reply, here is their answer.

    Dear Sirs,
    You need to possess a valid green card for your vehicle when entering Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Green card should be obtained from the car rental agency or from the insurance company where the vehicle is insured.

    Otherwise, you need to buy (EUR 30 for small car) a short-term border insurance at the border crossing.

    Best regards,

    Amel Zekić
    Head of Legal Department

  • CroatiaJeanne

    Hi Lorrie,
    Thanks for following up on that. The response confirms my original point which was that entrance into B&H is included in the standard green card issued with any car rental and that a cross-border card is unnecessary.

  • Lorrie Wood

    No it says that you need a green card and if you show up to the boarder without one you will need to buy one. They did not say that “that entrance into B&H is included in the standard green card issued with any car rental and that a cross-border card is unnecessary.” Again if it is a scam why do you link to car rental companies that are running a scam?

  • Catherine

    As we can clearly tell, BH and Montenegro are by law included in the green card system. And you keep telling us that it is not required to pay a cross-border fee to either the rental company or authorities at the border. But the thing is that if the car rental company has a contract for you to sign where they have clearly excluded your visit into BH and Montenegro, or where it says that the basic CDW/TP insurance does not apply in those countries if you don’t pay the fee, then surely you have to pay the fee in order to get the car and the documents. Or if you sign a contract where it says travelling to these countries not included and you still take the car there, you surely won’t get any compensation if something happens to the car outside of Croatia (and will probably lose all your excess). Because you have signed the contract and not told them you are going outside of Croatia, thus you’ve broken the contract. Am I right? And also, neither BH or Montenegro are part of the EU so the fee might be somehow related to that even though it is a rip off. But if all the rental companies write contracts excluding those countries, what can we do?

  • CroatiaJeanne

    I have been informed (see above) that car rental companies should not put such an exclusion into the rental contract. If they do, you might try to argue that the exclusion is illegal. If they insist, you have little choice but to pay the supplement or risk a major fight with the insurance company in case of a problem in B-H or Montenegro. All I can do here is publicize what I was told by the relevant Croatian authorities.

  • Olivier Issaly

    As per Enterprise and the 7 days notice for the green card that some travelers mention : it only applies to Enterprise agencies in EU country like France or Germany which are not used to have cars going to Bosnia.
    Enterprise agencies in Croatia have all their cars with the green card, no need to call 7 days before. They told me it is probably the same for Enterprise in Slovenia or Montenegro.
    We booked a car at Enterprise last week in Dubrovnik, and just noticed them we were going to Bosnia at the pick-up. They ask for 50€ but that’s another topic, I just want to inform about the 7 days :)

  • Hannah Catrin Hawthorne

    Hello, we have rented through Green Motion at Split airport and are travelling through Montenegro, Italy, Slovenia and back into Croatia. The contract states:

    Travel Restrictions

    Vehicles are allowed to go to EU countries, Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo, Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Switzerland, and Norway. It is NOT ALLOWED to go to Turkey, Russia, and Ukraine.

    Cross Border charges: EUR 45 per rental.

    Additional insurance cost for Kosovo EUR 5 perday (with a maximum of EUR 50).

    Ferry travel: EUR 25 per rental

    Having read your forum I can see that cross border charges don’t necessarily need to be paid. But the contract is wooly in terms of whether your vehicle will be insured whilst in another country than Croatia.

    What are your thoughts?